I posted this topic on the Arianna Huffington forum...a total of 122 posts have been generated as of this moment in time...(and I believe it's run it's course...thankfully!)

I just thought some of you might find it bothersome, irksome, boring, infuriating, to see how those who you don't know respond to a topic.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/interact/phorum/

this is the link, just click on general topics...it will eventually fall off the page.
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Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-01-02 07:21

I backed my car into a parking spot recently.

Because I had backed into the parking pspace, I was put face to face with a woman sitting in her own car, who was minding her own business.

She had a minor (another female-probably around 11-14 years of age) in the car with her, in the front passenger seat.

As I started to close my car window, my eyes locked on this woman's lit cigarette.

She was holding the cigarette between her two middle fingers, her left elbow was probably propped against the inside door arm rest, which allowed her left
hand to comfortably rest on top of the driver's door, her lit cigarette was sticking out from between her two middle fingers like a side view mirror.

Because I had backed into the space, my drivers door was next to her drivers door, but in the opposite direction.

As I stood up and started to close my door, I saw that she was pregnant, probably about 3-5 months worth.

I'm surprised I did what I did, I never actually touched her...I plucked the cigarette from her two fingers with two of my own fingers.

She never even noticed me next to her car, but she sure did notice the cigarette disappear from between her fingers.

I don't remember exactly what I said, I think I said "You shouldn't smoke when you're pregnant".

What made the whole situation even more offensive to me was the girl of about 11-14 years of age seated next to her.

A Pregnant women not just smoking, but smoking in front of a minor, who also happened to be a girl.

I think her first words were, GIVE ME BACK MY CIGARETTE!

I said NO!

...I didn't want to stand next to her car and in anyway appear menacing, so after I plucked the cigarette and said she shouldn't be smoking when pregnant,
I kept on walking, away from her and toward the ice cream shop to get my yogurt ice cream.

She Yelled after me that she was going to call the police if I didn't give her back her cigarette.

I said "Fine, I'm not going anywhere, I'll be right here".

She was quite angry, in a way, I was afraid of her, because I knew I could not go up to her, for that would be deemed an aggressive act...yet she kept
yelling at me to give her back her cigarette or she would call the police.

She ended up taking my license number down, but instead of waiting for the police, she left....that gave me the creeps.

She has info on my, yet I have no info on her.

So here are my additional two cents worth..

...If a woman wants the right to have an abortion...than on the opposite end, TAKE CARE OF THE FETUS during a pregnancy that you plan on bringing to
birth.

That is the trade-off, I call it Kid-Pro-Quo...

Abortions are legal, however, if you decide to keep the fetus and give birth to it, DON'T SMOKE and rarely if ever, drink nothing stronger than one glass of
wine..which I think is considered acceptable by medical institutions, although not on a daily basis either.

Kid Pro Quo...since you are allowed to have an abortion, when the opposite occurs, and you choose to bring a fetus into the world, don't abuse the fetus
while it is inside of you and growing...

Fair is Fair.

But alas, we live in a world where too factions that battle each other, Pro-abortion versus Anti-abortion, are so busy battling each other on this issue, that
other issues, such as fetus rights during a normal pregnancy, don't seem to matter as much.

In a way, I find that to be the biggest evil of all.

This all or nothing mentality. People still fervently want to eliminate all abortions, yet don't spend an ounce of time making sure those who are pregnant
don't do evil things like smoke during pregnancy.

Approximately 10-15% of all pregnant women smoke.

In the meantime, the Pro-Abortion and Anti-Abortion foes remain interlocked in their own battles. I suppose the thrill of the fight matters more than actually
turning attention to a more salient point.

Perhaps as many as 200,000-4000,000 babies born every year have mothers who smoked while they grew inside their wombs.

Can't both sides of the abortion issue call time-out, and help reduce this very real number?

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.140.112.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-01-02 14:46

Alex,

You are one brave S.O.B. picking on a pregnant woman. Why didn't you open the car door and go through her purse and get the rest of her cigarettes?
You could have counseled her and explained that smoking during pregnancy is EVIL. I sincerely hope that that lady has a husband that is 6' 4", 240 lbs
and he finds you and defends his wifes honor and right to smoke a legal product in the privacy of her own vehicle. In other words, you need your butt
kicked big time.

I further suggest that she could sue you, since she has a witness, and get enough of your money to buy all the cigarettes she will need until they kill her,
and they will. You really shouldn't traumatize a pregnant woman as mental stress can harm her and the fetus as much or more than cigarettes. You say are
nervous, and you should be, and you should be very thankful that that woman is not my wife.

I really think you made this crap up to start a rant about abortion and 'fetus rights.' Another boondoggle so mediocre trial lawyers can get rich.

BTW, I don't smoke, and have to leave the area where there is smoking as it really bothers me.

Curt


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Chuck Cliff (---.bynxx2.adsl.tele.dk)
Date: 01-01-02 14:50

// That is the trade-off, I call it Kid-Pro-Quo...//

Cool, excellant, you ought to edit this piece down and post it more places --

One quip: if the lady-in-waiting was 3, even 4 months pregnant, I don't think it would have been as obvious to you that she was pregnant.

Sounds more like 6 months (in which case your point is better taken, as the question of whether or not she was intending to carry the baby to term is more
moot...)

Kind regards
Cliff


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: General Smythe (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 01-01-02 15:14

Mr. Cliff:

You don't really believe that this incident actually happened,
do you?

General Smythe


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.141.45.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-01-02 17:05

Cliff,

Another big tough man that approves of abusing pregnant women. You are worse than Alex, since he just makes this crap up, but you are naive enough to
believe it really happened.

Curt


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-01-02 18:04

Oh, come on guys! When I discovered I was pregnant again in 1963 I decided to quit smoking again. My doctor told me to wait until the baby was born as
the shock to my system could prove a mistake. I did and had my last smoke on my way home from the delivery room. Baby was born at 8 am and I was
home by 9 am. That was the way it was done in those days. Millions of healthy babies were born to smoking mothers!

Millions of us smoked for years, many to keep our weight down. We had no more lung cancer than our mothers did! This is a lot of crap!

I haven't had a smoke for 35 years but certainly not to please a bunch of politically correct fuddy duddys like you!


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-01-02 18:19

I never threatened the woman in any way. I didn't even touch her.

I too do not advocate a male bullying a female.

You should read the original post more closely, as I pretty much stated the above.

Sandy, you are a bit delusional in your beliefs.

The only reason your child may have been spared your wanton cigarette abuse would strictly be related to your gene pool.

A feature not every mom to be has at her disposal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

If the woman's husband had been in the car, INSTEAD OF A FEMALE MINOR (which makes the mom to be more like a drug pusher indoctrinating the
young) I would have talked to the both of them.

But what can I say to a woman stupid enough to smoke in front of a female minor, she would not agree with anything I had to say because it would make
her look bad in front of the kid in the car.

But if hubby is there instead, and is reminded of the potential asthma, low birth weight, and after birth complications, including the higher possibility of SIDS,
at least he will know what he may be in for.

It's a whole different scenario if the father is there instead of the a female minor.

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (63.10.169.---)
Date: 01-01-02 18:45

Alex,

To start with, if the father had been there you would have walked away or got your butt kicked. Can you say tire iron, because that is probably what would
have been used on your soft little head. It is NONE of your business if a woman smokes a legal product in her vehicle. Are you sure she was preganant?
Perhaps she was just a bit obese.

That must have been quite a trick for you to STEAL her cigarette from her without touching her. Didn\'t your momma teach you to leave things alone that
don\'t belong to you?

I am being just as silly as you are because I dont\' believe for one second that you have the gonads to do what you said you ddi.

Curt


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (63.10.169.---)
Date: 01-01-02 18:45

Alex,

To start with, if the father had been there you would have walked away or got your butt kicked. Can you say tire iron, because that is probably what would
have been used on your soft little head. It is NONE of your business if a woman smokes a legal product in her vehicle. Are you sure she was preganant?
Perhaps she was just a bit obese.

That must have been quite a trick for you to STEAL her cigarette from her without touching her. Didn\'t your momma teach you to leave things alone that
don\'t belong to you?

I am being just as silly as you are because I dont\' believe for one second that you have the gonads to do what you said you ddi.

Curt


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-01-02 23:41

Curt, you made the point I wanted to make. Alex here STEALS (you know the value of the cigarette isn't important but they ARE getting more expensive)
from some pregnant woman trying to provide righteous indignation to this poor woman. Perhaps Alex 'ran' so fast from the car so that the prego or the
minor didn't kick his/her/bullie's ass. I don't advocate smoking while pregnant (or having sex while driving) but (and I understand the 'argument' that
preventing smoking would cut down on the public's expenses) for Alex to assault a pregnant woman, (despite not 'touching' her) and stealing her property
is ludicrous (and I too DOUBT the veracity of this 'story') and should be condemned, whether in theory or in practice.

I've quit years ago but my wife smoked with 3 of our 5 children years ago (not WAY back when, you know when smoking wasn't necessarily cool, but you
weren't demonized by jerkoffs like Alex here). If I had my way, I'd have taken that sissy yogurt and shoved a REAL ice cream in his/her hand.

[email protected]


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 00:53

Joe (as in Joe Camel???)

I would have gladly given her the monetary equivalent for what very little remained of the cigarette.

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.143.2.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-02-02 01:27

Alex,

But will you be abe to pay the damages for pain and suffering when your action traumatized this woman and caused her to have a miscarriage? It takes a
real low-life to bully a woman, and a first class jerk to brag about it.

Curt


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 01:50

Curt, I have never bragged about this.

I did bring it up to point a light on the issue of pregnant women who smoke, and the morons like you who support them.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.143.2.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-02-02 02:33

Alex,

I don't support, nor condone smoking by women, pregnant or not. I don't condone smoking by gay or straight men. I am allergic to cigarette smoke you twit.


I do believe that everyone has the right to smoke a legal product in the privacy of their home or car and should be protected from sanctimonious hypocritical
cigarette stealing morons like you.

You approve of abortions because they are legal. Smoking is legal, even when done by pregnant women. What makes you think that you can enforce
Alex's law because you don't approve of smoking by pregnant women.

The thing for you to do is to lobby your state legislature to pass a law making it a crime for pregnant women to smoke and make sure you get a provision
limiting them to one small glass of white wine a week. Go for it, Chuck Cliff will support you, as he really believes you steal from pregnant women.

You probably have now influenced her daughter into taking up a life of crime. She saw you successfully STEAL her mothers cigarette and get away with it.
You really should be made to pay the penalty for your crimes.

Curt


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 04:34

Alex,

I don't support smoking at all either, I am NOT allergic to smoke. BUT if I come along and choose (as you did) to steal something of yours, and then later on
(like later matters) decide to 'pay' for the cigarette you stole, you'd probably cry about it. She didn't BUY her cigarettes to have you buy ANY of them. Now if
you wanted it, she could have offered to sell them to you, at a profit. If you don't like the price then don't buy them (or STEAL them). You aren't God, I
know you and those with your agenda (Telling everyone ELSE that YOU and only YOU know what's best for them/us) are pompous enough (ballsless
though, as you apparently RAN from this pregnant woman and her minor DAUGHTER) to do as YOU please, but quit assaulting other people.

Joe(Camel, if you like)[email protected]


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 04:37

Alex,

I forgot to mention, what makes it okay for YOU to park backwards? Huh? Start parking correctly or I'll come along and take you're cute little car and, if I
think about it, I'll give you the monetary value of what's left of your little car.

Joe(Camel, if you like)[email protected]

What a pompous ass you are.


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 05:50

Your synthesis of the whole issue as one of "stealing" is so idiotic you've out vomitted yourself.

When "Lawrence" Singleton chopped off the arms of the runaway girl after he repeatedly raped her simply because she asked to be let go...

If you had happened by just before he chopped off her hands and grabbed the knife from his hands to prevent what was about to happen...

Would you really say that the primary issue was that you stole "Lawrence's" property?

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-02-02 05:59

Alex...What are you..some kind of a nut?


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 07:08

Uh, I gave a perfectly legitimate example, just because it's a fetus doesn't mean it can't be abused.

Do you consider the Illinois State Legislature "nutty".

Here are some links so you protectors of fetal abuse can get some education.

SMOKING AND PREGANCY LINKS...
http://www.legis.state.il.us/ilcs/ch410/ch410act85.htm

http://www.lungusa.org/tobacco/smosmpreg.html

http://www.chem-tox.com/pregnancy/smoking.htm

http://www.fetal-exposure.org/SMOKE.html

http://www.familyinternet.com/fisite...m/01020700.htm


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-02-02 14:31

Oh great. Let's legislate more rules and laws for us all to live by. After all we are idiots and unable to make our own choices! It's none of your damn
business when any of us do in our cars, homes or anywhere. Here in Arizona we can smoke in restaurants! Horrors! Imagine that? We are more concerned
with the idiots to race their boats while drunk as skunks! Every damn weekend some idiot hot shot from California or other state decides to play superman
on our river. That is something to complain about.

Is there no possible way you can all just live your own lives? Must you legislate mine? What kind of idiots are we raising that need crib to grave laws to live
with?

Hell, I'm nearly 70 and never looked to any state or federal legislation to lead me through my days. I managed very well without big daddy! Go home and
clean up your own homes and yards before you start worrying about mine.

This new America is killing me! You big brave men should develop some real balls and get on with your own lives.


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-02-02 14:34

Cricket and Sandy,

I'm glad you are seeing Alex for what he is. A moron do-gooder. I can't remember if Alex is pro-choice or not, but it seems interesting that he is so worried
about a fetus that can be aborted at any time.

Mark


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 15:44

Alex is PRO-abortion. Alex wants to CHOOSE how it's aborted though. It's all about power NOT whether it's right or wrong. If that were the case Alex would
have talked to the pregnant woman, not assaulted her. It's good to see that cricket and Sandy chimed in, because it's important for us to stand up for
someone's rights. Just like Alex believes (wrongly and FALSELY) that it's important to step in for the fetus that might otherwise be aborted (with Alex'
blessing) I believe it's important that Alex (despite having such a closed mind that NO ONE could make it change it's mind) to see that it's WRONG!!!

[email protected]


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-02-02 16:43

Hey guys...I dare you to ask Alex how he voted last year!


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-02-02 17:04

Don't tell me he voted for Bush. I am so confused.

Mark


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-02-02 17:31

In all my years, I never met anyone who was pro-abortion. That is a ridiculous term and quite unaccurate. There are many of us who don't believe that
anyone has the right to legislate the size of one's family.

Joe, you are probably a Catholic therefore it is illegal for you to consider an abortion. This is a religious subject and does not belong in the federal authority.

Many of us realize that religious people are interested in outbreeding each other and therefore cannot consider abortion as a possibility. Well many others
of us don't buy it! It's nobody's damn business whether a woman takes a fetus to term except her, her husband, doctor and chaplain.

The procedure is legal! What has this to do with who voted for Bush? It'a a non-issue! You can line up all the social conservatives and ask for a show of
hands on the abortion question. Just wait until it appears on the ballot and you will find them all wanting to keep the choice.


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 18:05

So you think any of this tripe is either on point, or even correct?

>>Joe, you are probably a Catholic therefore it is illegal for you to consider an abortion. Many of us realize that religious people are interested in
outbreeding each other and therefore cannot consider abortion as a possibility. Well many others of us don't buy it! It's nobody's damn business whether a
woman takes a fetus to term except her, her husband, doctor and chaplain. The procedure is legal! What has this to do with who voted for Bush? It'a a
non-issue! You can line up all the social conservatives and ask for a show of hands on the abortion question. Just wait until it appears on the ballot and
you will find them all wanting to keep the choice.<<

It is not illegal for ME to consider an abortion. Point out the religious people the are interested in outbreading each other, and PROVE that it's somehow
infringing on YOUR right to ridicule them. Who said it was illegal? Did you forget your medication again Sandbox? Perhaps YOU are so pro abortion, once
it's mentioned you foam at the mouth. Please don't bite me! (as you've threatened to do already)

By the way, homophobe is a made up word. It is a ridiculous term and quite INaccurate. UNaccurate is ALSO a ridiculous term. There is one context in
which the term might have some validity. I saw a movie that some here might have seen. 'American Beauty' had a military type father afraid that his son was
gay. He later turned out to be either a latent queer, or 'curious'. Either way, I see homophobia 'could' be the fear of turning queer. But the way the media
and wierdoes use it, it is the fear of queers. I'm not afraid of homosexuals. I don't like to see them in the middle of their 'sex act'. And the label 'homophobe'
is ALWAYS used for anyone that doesn't choose or condone the homosexual community. So where am I wrong Sandbox? Huh?

[email protected]
Your rant on a previous thread would almost make YOU a heterophobe right?


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (209.179.131.---)
Date: 01-02-02 18:13

It bears repeating, some of you support fetal abuse. Oh the bravery. You talk about picking on a poor pregnant women as if the fetus was an illusion.

Some of you don't want an ounce of prevention to be given to the most innocent of all, yet most of you probably like to bounce em on your knee once they
reach the age of 1, hold their hands at two, throw em a ball at three, come to their school the first time they appear on stage to sing America the Beautiful.

You are the typical self-centered hypocrites that thrive in this contry. You don't care where or how it got here, but now that my son, daughter, grandchild,
niece, nephew is here, I'll enjoy them.

That makes you biggest child of all.

Mark, stick to this issue, and forget the past. You only respond once you've made up your mind as to the "politics" of those you respond to! That is truly
pathetic, to put prejudice before thought.

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-02-02 18:32

Alex,

I believe that if you check the forum you will see that I have initiated some topics. I believe that qualifies me as thinking before I have digested the
comments. I mentioned the pro-choice angle because I like to see how everyone's comments fit into the big picture. We argue and fight over a myriad of
problems, but sometimes when you press one button down another pops up. There are no answers that solve all problems.

Frankly, I am with you concerning women who smoke while pregnant. We were gasping a few years ago when a close acquaintance was drinking a
margarita or two while pregnant. Unfortunately, our society has evolved towards managing other peoples behavior, rightly or wrongly. It is common
knowledge that the fetus eat, drinks and breathes what mommy takes in. It may have been a cheap shot to show the inconsistency of your concerns, but I
get your point.

Interestingly, liberals accuse conservatives of getting into peoples business (legislating morality) yet you unflinchinly jumped into that woman's business.
You say she was hurting the fetus, yet you would abort it. What does that say?

I, for one, would never do what you purportedly did. I think you took a big chance and stepped over the line. I can remember being in a restaurant once
bottle feeding my son when an elderly man walked by and told my wife that she should be doing it. We could not believe how he stuck his nose in our
business. The issue of women smoking while pregnant is not the same, but it is in the sense that you invaded someones space. You have big cajones.

Sometimes, I delay a response in order to see how the thread is going. Other times, I jump in late in the game because I wasn't around when it began. I
have no tactics, but do plead coming from an angle. So do you. I doubt that either one of us will change our basic political beliefs. You are an activist, I am
a realist. You can't change something without affecting something else.

The fact of the matter is, you knee-jerked a reaction. This is something that conservatives get accused of all the time. Your beliefs are deep and are
pushing you to a response they may or may not fit in with the big picture, hence the pro-choice crack on my part.

Mark


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-02-02 18:40

I am not sure about this whole thread..but I know one thing if Alex was telling a true story..than he is cracked! I am curious as to his fundamental beliefs
thats all.

I probably need to search other threads to see if has posted before.

As to his actions..they are entirely to extreme for me!


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-02-02 18:42

Cricket,

He has posted before. I well remember his comments being in the same vein, though this one tops all that came before.

Mark


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 18:52

Mark, if you read the original topic post, I NEVER purported to be either pro-choice or anti-choice.

I also don't acquiesce to your point that you caught me in some kind of a conundrum.

Fetal Abuse. Fetal Abuse. Fetal Abuse.

Nobody talks about Fetal Abuse because those fetuse's are too darn cheap to lobby congress for their own rights, so I guess they are "asking for it" when
mom smokes up.

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-02-02 18:55

Alex,

No, no, no... you are quite right about the right of a fetus. You (rhetorical remark coming up) just can't have it both ways. Are we to preserve the fetus just in
case we don't kill it? That's what it sounds like.

If you re-read my last post, you will see that I agree with you. I am quite aware that you did not state your position on abortion. I am just showing one and
all that you cannot argue in a vacuum.

Off to a meeting.

Mark


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 19:15

Arguing in a vacuum? Well, when Joe is on the other side, it's more like skipping cow pies across a swamp.

But hey, I came up with a compromise solution.

It's like big brother, but it's not.

If a woman wants to smoke during pregnancy, she needs to file with the AMA (OK, more paperwork, but heck, look at all the paperwork involving your car,
home, and loans)

This filing CAN NEVER BE USED AGAINST HER...except on one condition. If the fetus who will become her child grows up with proveable problems related
to her smoking while pregnant, the true victim, the child, could have the right to sue mom for damages.

Now this changes everything. As long as mom has registered that she will be smoking while pregnant, I know that the true victim will have recourse later in
life. Fair is fair.

I could call a hotline number, report the license number of the pregnant person I saw smoking, and at least have it verified that she has registered as a
smoker during her pregnancy.

I never have to even know her name, just that she did the honorable thing and reported that she would be smoking while pregnant.

Call it a registered smoke offender.

Although, the easiest of all solutions is to just outlaw smoking when pregnant, just as the Illinois legislature has proposed.

-Alex


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Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-02-02 19:24

Mark...I did go back and read Alex's posts and I guess he is definitely anti-conservative, but certainly his actions concerning the cigarette incident are not
consistant with liberal thought? My usual point..do the extreme extremes on both sides meet on the otherside of midnight somewhere?


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 19:33

Cricket, I appreciate the fact that your re-read the original post.

Hopefully, you will see it as a good thing that true intellectual thought must first severa all ties to either conservative or liberal values.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: gobrent (---.capitalone.com)
Date: 01-02-02 19:34

{It bears repeating, some of you support fetal abuse. Oh the bravery. You talk about picking on a poor pregnant women as if the fetus was an illusion.}

{You are the typical self-centered hypocrites that thrive in this country. You don't care where or how it got here, but now that my son, daughter, grandchild,
niece, nephew is here, I'll enjoy them.}

I can?t believe that you really meant to post these statements. You are pro-choice??you support abortion rights! Put another way, you ridicule this woman
for smoking (posing MAYBE a 10% risk of some kind of defect or disease to the fetus), yet with your dying breath, you would support this woman if she
decided to have an abortion (a procedure that imposes a 100% CERTAINTY OF KILLING THE FETUS!) And you have the balls to call other people
hypocrites?

And it is YOUR attempts at comparing your actions to some sort of superhero that are idiotic. If I saw Larry Singleton brandishing a knife as he was holding
down a woman with ripped up clothing, I would have every legal justification (and moral responsibility) to attempt to get it away from him. Like it or not, what
you did WAS illegal, and if a cop had been there to witness it, you could have been charged with (and convicted of) assault and battery and petit larceny.

The real problem with your argument is that the same thought processes can be used to ?justify? bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors. If you can
justify taking her cigarette in an effort to ?help? the fetus, then you are conferring the status of human being to the fetus. And if that?s the case, then doctors
who perform abortions ARE killing human beings. Now, if you have the right to step outside the law to stop someone from doing something that MAY harm
a fetus, why don?t others have the right to step outside the law to stop someone from doing something that WILL DEFINITELY kill the fetus?

There is only one criteria for not being allowed to smoke in this country: if you are under 18 years old. For everyone else, it is legal to do so. If that woman
wants to smoke while she?s pregnant, that?s her business and I support her right to do so as long as there are no laws to the contrary?..and if her child was
born with birth defects that could be linked to the mother?s smoking while pregnant, I would fully support her prosecution for child abuse because there is no
way she isn't aware of the dangers of smoking while pregnant.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 20:05

gobrent, all of your counterpoints were so stupid and ill-informed, I'm not even going to justify them with an answer.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-02-02 21:16

Alex,

IMO, Gobrent (who needs no assistance to make a point by the way) was taking your arguments to it's logical conclusion in order to make a point. It is the
same thing that I was saying: It seems odd to hear someone who is pro-choice argue about protections for the viability of a fetus. You can't have it both
ways. Oh there I go again being black and white on an issue. What a dummy.

Mark


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-02-02 21:37

OK, one final time....I NEVER SAID I WAS PRO-CHOICE OR ANTI-CHOICE....NEVER EVER.

PLEASE RE-READ THE ORIGINAL TOPIC POST BEFORE ASSUMING THAT SOMEONES SPIN HAS SOME KIND OF RELEVANCE TO THE POINT YOU
WISH TO MAKE.

If you respond to someone's point, but that point is off-point, your response becomes worthless to the original topic post.

-Alex


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (---.public.svc.webtv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 23:39

I didn't know that smoking was illegal. I also didn't know that cigarettes are an illegal product.

But I DO know this: that pregnant woman had every right to smoke that cigarette or as many as she wants. YOU do NOT have the right to snatch the
cigarette from her. If I were her I think I'd press harrassment charges against you.

You are the perfect example of a Moral Hysteric.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (---.public.svc.webtv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 23:44

Why do you doubt that this incident happened? We see the Pro-Life crowd butting into people's personal lives all the time. Why should the Anti-smoking
Moral Hysterics be any different?

At least he didn't shoot her. Legal is as legal does.

I hate smoking. None in our family of l5 smokes. I avoid restaurants that permit smoking. I think it is a vile habit. That said, the product is a legal one (so far)
and so is the behavior (so far).


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (---.public.svc.webtv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 23:52

Well said, Sandy.

I'm always amazed by these Moral Hysterics...they classify themselves as our protectors...'We only want to help you' is their mantra...over and over and over
from shooting abortion doctors to keeping Gays out of Scouting to forcing all of us to listen to their prayers and look at their Ten Commandments in school
hallways and public buildings.

You can bet that Alex is a Pro-Lifer who sees himself as the 'Grand Protector' of all fetuses and woe unto the carriers of these fetuses if he catches them
with a cigarette in their hands or hanging from their lips. He doesn't give a rat's patooty for these women...he is doing God's work in saving that fetus from
the evil bad habit(s) of the carrier.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.142.128.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-03-02 00:43

Alma,

You will find that Alex is either lawyer or a wannabee lawyer and there is not a conservative or religous bone in his body. You would like him!!!

Curt


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-03-02 01:54

Interesting....how do we classify Alex?


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 02:29

Alma, knives are legal, it does not mean you use one to harm another.

Cigarettes are legal, that does not mean you use it to harm another.

-Alex


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (24.53.175.---)
Date: 01-03-02 02:46

Alex, Alex, Alex.....It is not illegal to smoke if one is pregnant! By the way..was that your form of citizen's arrest? Do you also give misbehaving children
timeouts in grocery stores. I wonder if you would take candy from a baby? (tooth protection you know)

I have an idea....print out packets of information and pass them out to pregnant women who you find smoking!


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 03:10

So Ethics have no place in our society, we are all programmed to follow all existing laws, and never question these laws.

Lets extend your logic for a moment.

If one lived in Afghanistan, or the Middle East, and one followed the Kuran according to Osama Bin Laden.

They too, would just be following the law when it came time to kill all American Infidels.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Chuck Cliff (---.bynxx2.adsl.tele.dk)
Date: 01-03-02 05:55

Gen. Smythe

>You don't really believe that this incident actually happened, <

I'm beginning to have my doubts, being able to diagnose a pregnancy at 3 months while the subject is sitting in a car, shows some ignorance, which I
pointed out -- I just liked the "kwid pro kwo" line I guess.


Rgrds
Cliff, PCFC

PS, I don't really believe youse a general <he he>
C


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Chuck Cliff (---.bynxx2.adsl.tele.dk)
Date: 01-03-02 06:22

Curt,

If Alex really made this up he is a shithead.

But I still like the "Kwid Pro Kwo" sound bite.

Rgrds
Cliff


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 06:33

I was momentarily panicked that she might not be pregnant, but when she got out of the car and yelled at me to give her back her cigarette, she definitely
looked pregnant, but not a lot... I said 3-5 months.

The avoidance of the original topic by many is quite fascinating.

Issues of theft, assault (I never touched her), bullyism, illegality, just a myriad of side bar issues that conveniently avoid the fact that fetal abuse is a
non-issue to most.

I found GoBrent's post so stupid I had to re-read it because I remember previous posts of his to not be so...and on a second reading I did find something
of interest...

his idea that you cannot acknowledge "fetus" rights because it elevates them to "human" status is interesting.

However, animals have rights, and we don't treat them as humans...as a matter of fact, isn't it odd that we do acknowledge certain rights for animals and
yet no such "rights" exists for fetuses?

Some of you seem to place more faith in our laws than in common sense...have you all forgotten that a law has never met a financial contribution it didn't
need?

-Alex


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Chuck Cliff (---.bynxx2.adsl.tele.dk)
Date: 01-03-02 06:34

Sandy,

After thinking more about it, I don't really think much of Alex's posting, and I'm beginning to agree with Curt and Smythe that he is a liar.

But I did like and still do the "Kwid Pro Kwo" line.

I don't think your doctor knew what he was talking about in '63 -- glad you had good babies.

Lung cancer is only for those who are genetically predisposed to that in the first place.

My genes are not, and apparently yours as well -- mine set me up for both cardiac and empysemia problems, which smoking does not help

On the other hand, we all have to die of something.

Rgrds
Cliff


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 06:38

Author: Chuck Cliff (---.bynxx2.adsl.tele.dk)
Date: 01-03-02 06:22

Curt,

If Alex really made this up he is a shithead.

But I still like the "Kwid Pro Kwo" sound bite.

Rgrds
Cliff


And if I didn't make it up? (I think I know the answer, although I don't agree with it)

FETAL POWER!


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 06:49

Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-02-02 14:31


Hell, I'm nearly 70 and never looked to any state or federal legislation to lead me through my days. I managed very well without big daddy!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sandy, I'm sure Poor FDR just rolled over in his grave.

-Alex

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-02-02 17:31

It's nobody's damn business whether a woman takes a fetus to term except her, her husband, doctor and chaplain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well Sandy, I think you just solved the fetal tissue issue.

Gesundheit.

-Alex


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 11:00

I posted the following statement....

Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 02:29

Alma, knives are legal, it does not mean you use one to harm another.

Cigarettes are legal, that does not mean you use it to harm another.

-Alex


Cricket than posted the following response...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Author: cricket (24.53.175.---)
Date: 01-03-02 02:46

Alex, Alex, Alex.....It is not illegal to smoke if one is pregnant!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Cricket, your response in no way addressed my point, can you read?

-Alex


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 11:07

Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-02-02 18:40

I am not sure about this whole thread..but I know one thing if Alex was telling a true story..than he is cracked! I am curious as to his fundamental beliefs
thats all.

I probably need to search other threads to see if has posted before.

As to his actions..they are entirely to extreme for me!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cricket, you have the memory of one if you can't remember previous posts or topics by me.

So Alex is "cracked" for caring about fetal abuse.

A subject you have probably never even thought about.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 11:12

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (---.public.svc.webtv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 23:52

I'm always amazed by these Moral Hysterics...they classify themselves as our protectors...'We only want to help you' is their mantra...over and over and over
from shooting abortion doctors to keeping Gays out of Scouting to forcing all of us to listen to their prayers and look at their Ten Commandments in school
hallways and public buildings.

You can bet that Alex is a Pro-Lifer who sees himself as the 'Grand Protector' of all fetuses and woe unto the carriers of these fetuses if he catches them
with a cigarette in their hands or hanging from their lips. He doesn't give a rat's patooty for these women...he is doing God's work in saving that fetus from
the evil bad habit(s) of the carrier.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alma, I'm very disappointed in the spittle you quaffed down.

All you do is try to define "Alex" rather than come up with a worthwhile observation about the issue...which is obviously more complex than you care to
admit.

You've probably never given fetal abuse a thought, yet you condemn others who have.

-Alex


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alex (---.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 01-03-02 11:21

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Alma Jurgensen (---.public.svc.webtv.net)
Date: 01-02-02 23:39

I didn't know that smoking was illegal. I also didn't know that cigarettes are an illegal product.

But I DO know this: that pregnant woman had every right to smoke that cigarette or as many as she wants. YOU do NOT have the right to snatch the
cigarette
from her. If I were her I think I'd press harrassment charges against you.

You are the perfect example of a Moral Hysteric.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And you are pro fetal abuse.

Be strong, Be proud, and just gwab that cute widdle one, two, three, four, five year old niece, nephew, chile, grandchild and tell dem how much you wuv
them.

But when they were in the oven baking, they could have burned the non-aborted baby to a crisp, and you wouldn't care.

You actually believe it is OK to witness the abuse of the unborn when abortion is not involved.

Animal rights yes, fetal rights for those not aborted, no...now that is lunacy of the highest degree.

But just give dat widdle boy or girl a gwate big hug, cuz you wuv dem so much.

Hypocrite.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Sandy Price (---.lakehavasu.ispchannel.com)
Date: 01-03-02 12:59

May I ask how many of you "planners of our unborn" posters live in America? Don't you realize that you are demanding a federal government that will need
to keep a data base on our personal habits just to please your curiosity of who sins and who doesn't?

Where in the U.S. Constitution does it mention a single personal issue as being under federal law? In fact the term "unborn" is deliberately not mentioned.
There is not a single "right" given to anything unborn. No social security number issued until after born, no one is to count the unborn in any census. Where
do you all get your ideas that the federal government has the time or money to trace your ridiculous concepts of "Father knows best."

What you guys are suggesting is a society of the future that would allow very few choices to be given to anyone. They have this society firmly being used in
Communist China and maybe you should live there for 10 years to see how you like it! How far will you go to protect your unborn? Maybe drape your
women in clouds of fabric, covering her face and body so no one can even glimpse your woman, pregnant or not? Spent a year or two in Afghanistan and
see how you like it!

We have certain American rights that will never allow our federal government to issue the kind of laws that you all want. Your time would be better spent
keeping unwanted fetuses from being conceived. It is none of your business what any American ingests, injects, inhales or thinks. I truly believe that all you
do-gooders are living in the wrong country.

Now here's my plan. Start with a city in America. Try to pass those laws that you seem to want in that city. Initiatives, elections and with the majority of the
voters, you have a good chance at living in the city of your dreams. Don't be surprised when the tax base moves to a freer city! You can't have it both ways.

When you are successful in your plan for your garden of eden, go to the county and then the state. Each state has a different set of rules and a different
constitution to guide them. However when you are talking about the Federal government, you have absolutely no authority.

Pick up a copy of the Constitution and read the Bill of Rights. It appears that none of you have bothered to memorize our list of "Rights." Read a little
Patrick Henry too! He wrote:

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."

There are dozens of government in our world who probably have the rules for their citizens already on the books. If you can't discover which of these
countries are for you, spent a few hours on the borders of any port in America and you will see those citizens begging to be allowed to enter America.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Joe Marquez (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: 01-03-02 15:03

Alex is just a liar and a nut job (one please, both nuts is overdoing it)

Maybe it happened, but I've got two observations that Alex will think are 'off point' (anything that doesn't idolize 'it' is 'off point'):

>>I was momentarily panicked that she might not be pregnant, but when she got out of the car and yelled at me to give her back her cigarette, she
definitely looked pregnant, but not a lot... I said 3-5 months.<<

Even when it's 'story' seemed to be about someone that was SURE it'd found a prego, it was bad, but now we find out that this jerk goes off without even
being SURE that the woman is pregnant. Talk about the greatest of ignorance. Alex maybe you just need your asskicked and then that will be the end of it.
I mean really kicked.

[email protected]
As far as this crap about registering and checking in with Alex regularly, I'll have to say this might require another asskicking.


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-03-02 16:05

Certainly I did..Knives ARE legal and have many uses. There are laws and it Is illegal to kill another with a knife. Cigarettes ARE legal. To use a cigarette
you SMOKE it. It is NOT illegal for pregnant women to smoke. Let's face it you made a judgement call and it was wrong!! Would you walk in a bar and grab
a stranger's drink....or resturant and grab an obese person's french fries....what about the couple dragging a crying tired toddler around the mall late in the
evening? Where does it ever end?????


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.140.96.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-03-02 16:12

Alex,

Following the Koran according to bin Laden would be very similar to following the "no smoking by pregnant women allowed" according to Alex. bin Laden's
interpretation is to kill all infidels and Alex's interpretation is for everyone that sees a pregnant woman smoking to STEAL the cigarette from her, and if she
doesn't like it, say Alex said it was the law.

Your buddy bin Laden has misinterpreted the Koran and you are violating the law. That's close enough to be similar.

Logic is a marvelous tool don't you think.

Curt


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.140.96.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-03-02 16:16

Alex,

I promise you that the next pregnant dog I see smoking, even if she is a Pit Bull, I will STEAL the cigarette from the bitch!

Curt


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.140.96.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-03-02 16:21

Chuck,

Read between the lines on post Alex's response to me of 01-01-02 1:50.

Curt


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Mark (216.140.50.---)
Date: 01-03-02 16:22

Cricket,

That's the point. It would never end. Alex is a microcosm of our judgemental society. Liberal and Religious fundamentalists. Both stand ready to judge. It's
just that liberals don't see it that way. They have invented there own morality and are arrogant enough to say that is the GOD that we should follow.

Mark


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-03-02 16:38

Mark..I am telling you the extremes meet somewhere on the other side of midnight!

I would never have related Liberals and God??

I have a niece who was quite liberal. She was constanly calling my mother to task for some perceived social indescreation or comment she considered rude
or judgemental. Finally, I pointed out to my neice that she too was being rude and judgemental in her actions towards others in her constant corrections.
Gives pause for thought!

You know, as I look back over some of my own posts and other's reactions to them....being judgmental and vocal about it might just be a family trait! OH
OH!!


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: Curt (---.25.140.96.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net)
Date: 01-03-02 16:45

Cricket,

In my humble opinion, Alex is a lawyer or a wannabee lawyer and is trying to build a constituancy for fetal rights. As is the wont of all lawyers, if successful,
he can exploit this highly emotional subject into millions of dollars to put in his pocket.

This paricular poorly thought out example didn't work for Alex, but he won't stop trying. Note that he is unable to write pro-life, but uses the term
anti-abortion, which should give you a clue that he is on your side (pro-choice) of the abortion issue. He insists that he has NEVER said he had a position
on abortion, but refuses to state one. Very lawyer-like response!

BTW, deep down,I don't think pregnant women should smoke and did succeed in
talking my daughter into cutting way back on smoking when she was pregnant. Passing a law against it or doing what Alex pretends to have done is
ludicrous.

We finally agree on something. : -)

Curt


Reply To This Message

Re: Pregnant Women who Smoke....
Author: cricket (---.pit.adelphia.net)
Date: 01-03-02 17:26

How about that!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The exciting conclusion can be found in Pregnant Women who Smoke (Part II)... rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes




------------------
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited January 06, 2002)